It would be great to have someone to work with to establish a business. Let’s hear from Dave Jones and Pamela Jones as they dive deep into success in the real estate industry. They were able to reach their professional goals once they were united together as husband and wife. In this episode, they emphasize that it is beneficial to have a family member in the business because you will grow and earn income together. But this does not mean they are not open to working with others. They are currently helping people maximize the price of their homes in the market. Listen and hear some of the tips on open communication for a successful business venture!
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The Power Of Successful Business Relationships In Real Estate With Dave Jones and Pamela Jones
I am delighted to introduce our two guests. We are celebrating our eight-year of this show on the 1st. In that time, we have done a mastermind. I have interviewed 2 people on 2 separate screens. Now, I’m interviewing 2 people on 1 screen. It is a delight to have Dave Jones and Pam Jones with us. Welcome to the show.
Thanks. We are happy to be here.
We have some history, and we will talk about that in a little bit. First, I want to take this opportunity to introduce the two of you. They are married. It’s not a brother-sister situation. Pamela has been a real estate agent since 1983, which is the year I’ve got into mortgage lending as well. Dave was in the mortgage business for a couple of years. In 2009, he became a real estate agent and hopped on to Pamela’s team. I love that story because that’s exactly what happened with me and my husband as well.
Pamela is an associate broker in Northern Virginia. Dave, you are also a broker or a real estate agent as well. We have history because we are in the same market and have worked together in the past in a variety of situations and capacities. I’m excited to have you here because I want to talk about quite a few things as we put this show out in the first quarter of 2022. There is a lot of speculation about what’s going to be happening in the marketplace, so I wanted to step back a little bit and go back to 2019.
In 2019, a lot of people, real estate and loan officers alike, were saying, “Should I be in this business? Should I stay in this business?” There’s the word that you and I talked about in the green room. I dislike the word low inventory because we have homes. They are just not all on the market. We had this low inventory environment. There were not a lot of loans or refis happening for loan officers that hang their hat on that. People were saying, “Should I stay in business?” COVID came, and then everybody was super busy and saying, “I had the best year,” except the market gave it to you. I have talked about that on this show before.
For those that had great systems and had been around for a while, they exponentially did better, which is good. For those that didn’t have those systems, they struggled because they were so busy, “I don’t know what to do.” 2021 comes around, and everyone says, “What’s going to happen?” Thank God that rates stayed low. At least we’ve got half the year of some good market penetration as far as properties but there’s a shift happening now, and I cannot get my finger quite on it. Not to say that I don’t have some opinions about it but I would like to hear from you.
What do you think 2022 is going to bring us with, and the inflation that we see now? How is that going to impact values and people in their choices? Rates might go up a little bit but we have been spoiled for years. What are some of the thoughts that you are seeing? I want to start with you, Dave. I know you were primarily with the buy-side, and Pamela does primarily in the listing. Let’s talk about buyers first, and then let’s go to the sellers.
We are very bullish on the year. It has already started very strong. There are more people who are going to take advantage and put their hubs on the market. We are already seeing multiple offers again and waiving of escrows. That’s already happening.You can push the house value up by appealing to a broader base of buyers. Click To Tweet
A lot of the people who were not able to buy in 2021 because of the competition and so forth, and may have rented are now in an opportunity to buy. They want to try it again. They didn’t have an opportunity last time. First-time homebuyers are going to play a big role. They’ve got forced out of the market because of investors in cash deals and those things. They are going to come back strong. There are people who, through all of this, decided that they don’t want home maintenance anymore, so maybe they are going to downsize or change the way they are doing this.
There are also people who were quarantined with other people. If they have to be quarantined again, these are not the people they want to live with anymore. There’s a market there for people. There are many opportunities, even if interest rates go up a little bit. We have been hearing about this for a couple of years with Peter and the Wolf thing but 0.5% or 1% is going to have very little effect on the market.
Let me do a quick little follow question to that, and we will go over to you, Pam. Loan officers, real estate agents, and top producers are reading and saying, “How do you do it?” How are you guiding your clients from the buy-side in two areas? We will go ahead and talk about the appraisal gap. I will waive an appraisal or an appraisal contingency, or I will pay $50,000 over that, whatever the appraised value is.
I want to talk about that piece of it. I also want to talk about how you are guiding your clients who are saying, “I want to sell or buy but I don’t know if I have it in me to fight through seventeen offers. What if I can’t find a house if I’m selling?” I know that will go to you in a moment, Pam. How are you guiding your buy-side clients in those two categories?
Every buyer is not the same. Some people are more qualified than others. If you have the ability to close with additional funds to offset that gap in the appraised value, you are going to make that money up on the next sale and the sale after that. It’s not the prices are going to level off all of a sudden. The other thing is if you are putting down a fair amount of money, people think that you have to put the whole $50,000 down difference, and in many cases, it’s a lot less than that.
The other thing is that a lot of the lenders if you put down enough money, are waiving the appraisal requirements. Even if it’s $25,000, $30,000 or $40,000 more, in some instances, there’s no requirement of the lender to make up that difference. There are a lot of options. You have to be creative, talk to them, and ask questions so that you figure out what their real goal is.
How are you guiding people as far as the multiple offer piece of this?
There are a few things. I never thought we would have an experience where people were buying houses sight unseen. I’m from a Military background, and it was not unusual that when you get transferred every 2 or 3 years, you might have to rent sight unseen. There are ways that protections that a buyer still has. The other thing is that being flexible and allowing the sellers to have rent backs makes your contract stronger.
Having home inspections either in advance or the whole idea of a void-only home inspection where you either take the house away or don’t after the home inspection. Sellers don’t want the long laundry list of items anymore. We already talked about appraisals. Financing used to be 30 to 60 days to get a loan. Now, in many cases, that can be done in a week. Faster turn times also are things that are important to the seller.
You are bringing up a good point as we move into the conversation with Pam and said, “I have always been of the opinion. It’s not about the price. I have sold plenty of homes. I’m a real estate investor. I bought many homes sight unseen. I’ve got to drive to Indiana to look at the one that I bought for $9,400, so we can get back on the market and that stuff.” I have always been in the opinion. A lot of times, it’s about the terms that person is needing.
You and even my readers know that we were going to put our house on the market, and I almost lost my husband in May 2021. We had all these criteria that would need to be. We have to find the perfect buyer to sell this house even in a hot market but will my buyers do this? It’s because these are our requirements now. We are willing to sacrifice price to get the circumstances. Let’s talk about that for you then, Pam. It’s still a seller’s market. What are you seeing as some of the deliverables that buyers, as the loan officers and real estate agents are reading, can be advising their clients as to some of the criteria that the sellers are looking for?
Let’s go back to the question that you asked Dave about how we balance timing. Very often, we are asking our buyers to see if they can qualify without selling their properties and also writing in 60-day rent-back contingencies. Sellers are looking for little to no repairs, and we price accordingly. I have had homes that escalated a large amount because we priced it low. It was in horrible condition but people were willing to bid against other folks. There are those that we have priced what we thought was the top of the market at the time and still have escalated over the last couple of years to a higher price.
My job is to make it as stress-free as possible, find out what the motivation and their timing is, and help people get signed up with me far in advance of placing their homes on the market, so we have time to put the house in condition. Also, help them with their destination needs or not if they are moving out of the area. We place them a great referral with an agent where they plan to move. If it’s one of those people who don’t want to live together any longer, we help them with, “How do you go through this process without creating enemies?” It is about determining what their real needs are, what their motivation is, and planning accordingly around that.
You have brought this up a couple of times. Do you see more and more divorced situations than you had in the past?
Yes. We are also working with people who are advisors to folks who are planning a divorce who say, “My pipeline is full. There will be homes that will be coming on the market, and I would like to refer you to them.”
The reason I was asking you that is because I was a Certified Divorce Lending Professional or CDLP. I coached CDLPs now, and I’m part of that whole process of coaching. There is a certification for real estate agents as well. It’s such a great niche and market. When you are coming from a servant’s heart, it gets even better, regardless of having been divorced or not. It’s more of the servant’s heart of seeing people making these decisions in an emotional state and having a third party being able to see their ears for them.When you have a great business partnership, you truly care about each other and have a good time building the business. Click To Tweet
You mentioned something about accurate pricing. This is something I have addressed for years and years with real estate agents that I have been coaching, which is, “Are you a listing agent or a selling agent?” There’s a difference between being someone who lists a good bunch of homes but never sells anything. How do you help maneuver your sellers through the understanding of balancing greed and fear of saying, “My neighbor sold it, so I should be able to. I’m going to get top dollar?” How do you balance and guide them through that?
Part of that is asking questions. If it truly is a greed situation, then set the expectations that buyers are responding when they see something that is of real value in the market. That does a better job of bidding up pricing than when you start at the very top and wait for that one needle in a haystack buyer to come and make you whatever offer they are going to make. We have marketed the house value up by appealing to a broader base of buyers. In nowaday’s market, what’s driving the prices upward is that broad base of buyers compared to the various small groups of sellers. Sometimes, I decide not to work with them if greed is their only motivation.
That was going to be my next question on how you say no because this is regardless of the scale of someone’s practice. When someone’s first in the business, they want everything, either mortgage or real estate. As you get further down the road, you are more apt to say, “I don’t need to work with everybody.” Speak to the person who’s a brand new real estate agent who says, “I hear you. You can say no, but I need to say yes.” What does that do to their credibility, reputation, lives, and career when they start that way from the very beginning?
It makes it a painful experience and one that they may decide not to repeat. The average new license is out of the business within eighteen months. Not only does it put you in a negative mental state. Keep putting up with the constant questions, problems, phone calls, and emails takes away time from developing business with people who will do what you advise them to do, rather than taking all of your time listening to their complaints. Think about freeing yourself up for other opportunities when you can let someone like that go.
The term I use for that is work with people that complement not complicate you and your practice.
I have a cancellation clause in my listing agreement that goes both ways. The seller can give me two days’ notice, and I can give them two days’ notice.
I want to switch into some relationship questions as it relates to loan officers and other referral partners that you have. One of the things that I know you all want to give away is the managing expectations chart. I don’t want to leave that topic because you are talking about managing expectations.
We have a different chart for the buyer process. We have an entire booklet that has managing expectations, frequently asked questions, and the process. I can offer the entire thing.
Let’s go into talking about some relationships and things like that. You mentioned something in your listing agreement. I love learning this because I preach this constantly with my coaching clients. Whenever we are meeting, we have all of us this tendency that say, “I’m having a meeting with somebody.” Whether it’s a referral partner or a client, we are so excited.
Virtually, what’s happening is we are coming in as the salespeople, leaning into this relationship, and going to show up and throw up. We are going to get all the information that you have. It won’t be a reason to show up again because I don’t know what else to talk about. I already said everything because I couldn’t shut up. I’m talking fast on this to prove a point. We come in and have this tendency to be on the table and leaning over, “Do you want to work?” We are driving there and going, “I hope they like me.” It’s like the Sally Field thing.
We fail to remember that we need to like them. To create a neutral meeting, I have always set expectations, saying, “Thanks for meeting. I know there could be three outcomes in our meeting. One is you decide that you don’t want to work with me. That’s okay.” Saying that to someone allows for us to say, “It’s okay if we get rejected. You may say no, and that’s perfectly fine. You may say yes, and that would be perfectly fine as well. However, the third option is that I may decide that this is not a good fit for me.”
It creates neutrality because instead of me leaning over and hovering, they are going the other way and say, “Now I have to prove myself, too.” You are doing this in the listings. Tell us about the relationships you have experienced and are currently experiencing in all referral partners. As people are reading this, they are saying, “How do I have long-lasting, deep, and rich relationships with people that I’m working with as a lender and real estate agent? How do I develop these lifelong relationships? Where am I going wrong in what I’m doing that I don’t have them?”
The first thing is showing true interest in them and asking questions about what’s important to them. There’s a tendency, particularly when you are brand new in the business, to sit down and spend the first 30 minutes telling them about how great you are and your company, and all of the things that you can do but you haven’t talked to them about what they need or want, and more importantly, what their expectations are. I will give you an example.
I had a customer who got married for the second time and looked at over 50 houses with another realtor. Before they rented, they agreed to meet with me. I asked them questions for about 45 minutes and found common ground because even though they had gotten married, they agreed on very little. I showed them two houses. They wrote on both houses and got one. There were no 50 houses.
What’s the tipping point in that? That’s a huge gap. Those that are reading are saying, “They were looking at 50. How did you show them two? You questioned them for 45 minutes but what’s the secret sauce there?”
In this particular case, the husband kept saying, “Anything she wants, that will be perfectly okay with me. I don’t care. I want her happiness.” That’s a great thing to say, particularly when you are a newlywed. I said, “Is a garage important?” He said, “I’ve got to have a garage.” “Do you have a man-cave?” “I’ve got to have a man-cave to have my guys over.” If I had sold them a house that was based on hers, I might have gotten that house back as a listing real fast because that relationship wouldn’t have lasted, whereas finding out from him and narrowing it down. The wife is pleased because she didn’t want a house that was just what she wanted. I wouldn’t have known that if I had not asked questions.You have to compensate your team for their value. Click To Tweet
He was being Switzerland saying it was fine. I love my daughter-in-law but she’s Switzerland. My husband calls her Switzerland all the time, “Do you want cookies or cake?” She will say, “Whatever you want.” He’s like, “Switzerland, stop it.” I can’t even answer a question going, “Whatever.” He will call me that. That’s pretty interesting. Thanks for sharing that.
That’s so wonderful that you have the ability to seek that out quickly. We say all the time, ask questions, probing questions, open-ended questions, and closed-ended questions. What do you think it is that people don’t sit down and do that? Why do people have the tendency to say, “I’m going to go in and ask all these questions, and it gets thrown away?” Is it nerves? Is it fear? What is it?
They don’t practice this outside of sitting in front of a client. At that point, it is nerves and fear. We practice our scripts. We talk with people. We have to role-play partners of different personality styles and languages like folks that have a French, Spanish, Hispanic accent or whatever. We listen more and more with people that are not similar in our practices, which makes it much easier to listen to the people we don’t know across the table. Knowing what our questions are, we have the questions ingrained and listen to the answers. That’s what that is about. It helps us take great notes and be able to hone in on what’s important.
There are two things about that that are interesting. I did a lot of CE classes. One of the classes was real estate sales mastery. It was the first time that many real estate agents were in a true sales class and say, “Sell me this pen. Tell me the features and benefits.” They go, “I’m so nervous.” I remember one time, and this is so sad. She was the President of the Blue Ridge Association Of Realtors at that time. She was in this class. I said, “What makes you different? Why should I choose you as a real estate agent?” She said, “It’s because I’m going to put your house on the internet and make some flyers.” I died.
This was not when the internet was new. This was not too long ago. I started going to the real estate sales mastery and had lots of role-playing. They’ve all got their panties in a wad that it’s better to practice with us than it is to practice on your client. I can’t tell you how many times Brian and I would drive in. We live way out in the country and would drive into our office further in town.
We would use that time to role play, “What objection that you’ve got yesterday that tripped you up?” We work on it together. I love that you are doing that. Let’s talk about your relationship of husband and wife team working together. I had the beauty of being able to work with my husband for many years. They were not all great days. There were days I was not a fan because we are different personalities. What keeps this ticking?
Part of it is we focus on different things. I focus on working with sellers. He focuses on working with buyers. We both have gotten great at that. We are moving him more into the listing side but we have practiced everything so much that he’s very confident to be able to do that. Every now and then, we know how to yell at each other without yelling. We truly care about each other. We have a good time together, no matter what we are doing for the most part.
We all see that in the community. You are always together, and that’s how it used to be with us, too. It’s interesting because when you work with a family member or a spouse, it’s so much easier. My mom had this quote, “We flatter those we scarcely know. We please the fleeting guests. We dealt many of that and spoke to those we love the best.” It’s so easy to fly off the handle on a spouse, sister, brother or uncle in these relationships. You would never, ever do that with someone else on your team.
If you did, you would not have a team.
What advice do you give to someone who is contemplating working with a family member and saying, “I don’t want to work with them?” Why would you say that it is a positive thing to work with a family member?
For years, I focused on listings and hired buyer’s agents. I had people that I would refer buyers, and they would refer sellers. It worked out fine but all that money went into someone else’s bank account. With years of mortgage experience, there is no one who can do a better buyer interview than Dave Jones. When he was ready to make a move out of the mortgage business, it made sense for him to join the team on the money side. The funny thing is we met when we both worked for Montgomery Ward. It was a long time ago.
I have not heard a word from them in a long time.
They went out of business for a long time. When we both worked at Ward, we were happy working together. I’ve got into the real estate business, and he came a year later. For several years, we were happy working together. He went off to work for an electrical contracting company. We had tough times because we were thinking different things and not in that comfortable relationship. Once we were both back on the real estate side, it has worked well.
You have probably experienced some of this with Brian. Understanding the pressures and all of the things involved in the job and dealing with the public allows you to empathize a little bit differently than just complaining.
It’s like, “You are working again. Why do you want to take the phone call?” That’s the reality. How do you separate yourselves as a unit from business and become husband and wife? Are you doing that by choice? Are you making sure you do it or it happen when it happens? How do you disconnect both of you, unplug at the same time, and become a husband and wife?
We work Monday through Friday at generating business. If there is someone who is willing to sign something, we will work on the weekends only if it is a very motivated client and if it is time-restricted. We take most Sundays off. We do family things on Sunday. The other thing we do is we go on cruises. We don’t buy the internet package and use our phones. We are not in touch with people. We have great staff who can back us up and a great broker who covers if there’s an issue.It's good to be not just interested in your customer and client's needs, but the people who you work with and love. Click To Tweet
That’s a good point as well. We had our son in our team for years. Now, he’s a multi-multi-millionaire. We didn’t have our daughter, and she didn’t want to get in quicksand but then she came in the quicksand. Now, she’s on the team. She’s leading the team, which is great because she did plenty, and she should be. It’s neat. One of the things that we found about working with family is there’s a level of accountability and integrity that you can’t always find with a team. I’m not saying a team doesn’t have it but for us, it goes without saying.
I want to transition for a moment as we finish our time together into how you created a team. You mentioned, “We have a great team that watches out for us. We created this beautiful foundation that allows us to be ourselves.” In the absence of having someone who’s a family member and growing a team of people that you want to feel like family, what are some tips that you could give people in talent searching, onboarding, systems, communication, management, and accountability? I’m not saying all of those that you need to talk about. What are some of the things that make your team special and magical?
Our team is the two of us and an incredible assistant who is a licensed agent whose top priority is customer service. She and I share our email in all communications. She is aware of all of the phone calls, emails, and everything going on in a transaction. I take the lead on most things but she does all the backend stuff like photos, sign orders, and all of that good stuff. She is spectacular at customer service. She was our office broker’s assistant for several years.
Agents were making a lot of money. She ought to be able to get a real estate license and do that as well but failed miserably. Before she left real estate, I asked her to come and be a team member. I had done that with a previous assistant who stayed with us for fourteen years before she retired. Look for a real estate professional with great customer service, work ethic, and somebody that shows up every day.
The other thing I would say is compensating them for their value. We are in mastermind groups where agents are forever looking for new assistants. They come onboard, and you have to start the process of overtraining them. It’s a nightmare. They spent a little more and got a different skillset. It pays for itself many times over by not having to constantly retrain people. There’s a trust that allows us to go on that cruise and have a life beyond real estate.
For me, I call it customer experience, and customer experience is everything. You can’t train that. That’s innate. You can always train on the mechanics of real estate and lending. This person happened to be a licensed agent but to what level were you looking for someone who already had experience in the business?
I always laugh about this. Dave, we all remember this because my husband always called her Sunshine. I can’t think of her name. She was a dancer and receptionist at Long & Foster Investment. Regardless of whether or not she knew anything, the way that she treated people and the way you felt was 80% of the job. To what level do you recommend that people find someone who has some experience versus no experience when it comes to supporting you?
Some real estate experience is important to understand the insanity of schedule, how our clients have issues with their time, and to be able to act and react on that without feeling like they are being pulled in many directions. That’s one thing. The other one is she ends every phone call with, “Please call and tell me what you need. If there’s anything you think of, I’m here for you.” She does it with us and all of our clients. She was a military wife and has worked in many different sales businesses. All of that sales background is helpful as well, including new home sales.
What are her goals in life?
She is divorced and has two college graduates. Her goals are to help them become great citizens and a person who knows what they want to do and go after it. She is enjoying her single life now and trying to enjoy meeting the people in her neighborhood. She enjoys every day and has a good time at that. Eventually, the goal in life is for her to be able to retire but I don’t think that’s happening for a while.
The reason I asked you the question is one of the great things about great leaders is they know what the goals are of the people that work with them. It’s not just about them. It’s about the people on the team and helping your people get to the goals they are achieving. I want to commend you. It was a tripped-up question but you’ve got right through it. I didn’t mean to do it intentionally.
It’s good to be not just interested in your customer and client’s needs but the people who you know and work with, love and support.
They are your number one client. The rest goes downhill. What advice do you have for loan officers who are pursuing relationships with real estate agents? Whether they are brand new or tenured, it doesn’t matter. What are the mistakes that loan officers make when pursuing relationships with realtors?
I don’t think you can have a true relationship with people if you are only competing on price. There is so much more into the mortgage business than the commodity. Find a niche. Find something that your company offers that is not a Fannie, Freddie or FHA but something unique. Nowadays, they may start with that but at some point, their existing loan officer may retire, make a bad mistake or not be available. All of a sudden, the door is open for you to do a little more, and eventually, you are the primary.
We have a primary but there are several people in the Loudoun marketplace that do things like farms and properties that don’t fit into the box that most loan officers are working. Build those relationships. Talk with agencies and say, “Even if this is not your niche, when you run across someone who needs this help, here I am, and here’s how I can help.”
We always say there are riches in niches and niche to grow rich. I can’t tell you how many times I have told loan officers and realtors, too. If you are trying to sell everything to everybody, you are selling nothing to no one. You have to have expertise so that people remember the expertise. People shy away from it because it will be like, “If I say that, the only thing I will get is that.” You are not getting that anyway. It’s an opportunity for you to become a good expert in an area. That’s pleasant to know from a real estate agent.
Thank you so much for sharing that with us. Thank you so much for being here on the show and giving us your expertise. I always leave the show with some words of wisdom, mantra or quote. What do you want to leave us with? I imagine both of you will have something different that you want to leave with us that you want to say specifically to the person who is a realtor or loan officer so they can take action to improve their practice in their life.You can’t have a true relationship with people if you're only competing on price. Click To Tweet
The thing that has improved and put us into the position we are in is working with very strong business coaches. We work with The Mike Ferry Organization. If there are a lot of people out there, Mike is tough but he also is all about the basics. You go back to the basics, make the phone calls, and talk to people. You don’t just rely on social media. You have to find people, talk with them, and build that relationship so you can have that long-term connection with your loan officers, real estate agents, customers and clients.
Dave, how about you?
Repetitious boredom is part of business, and it can be a real challenge making calls and doing those things. The next call you make to a stranger is simply a friend you have not met yet. If you view it from that standpoint, it’s a whole lot easier to make those calls.
It’s interesting because both of you are talking about lead generation and client acquisition. That’s something that people are so consumed with the how-to process. All of these are important to get it. The bottom line is if you open up a business and you haven’t told anybody about the business, I always call it, “See the people and tell the story.” It’s all about client acquisition. I love that both of you lead into that particular thing.
As we start 2022, this is a very good topic for everyone to know about. It’s time to dig into your database, stop neglecting them, start nurturing them, see the people, tell the story, and ask for other people to see so that you can tell further stories. Thank you much for being here and sharing all of this beautiful wisdom. We appreciate it. What’s the best way to get in touch with you if someone wants to get in touch with you?
The best way is to call or text. My number is (703) 587-7440. I will make sure that you get Dave or me, whichever one.
I want to tell everybody, thank you. If this was your first time reading, welcome to the community. If you have been reading for quite some time, thank you so much for your patronage. I appreciate this eight years of celebration that we have been having here. I appreciate every one of you who is reading and that you shared with other people. I always appreciate your feedback.
Thank you so much for those of you that are texting or instant messaging me and saying, “I love that show.” Let me know what is important to you. If you have questions about coaching with me and being part of my community, please text LENDING to 26786. Be sure to subscribe to my YouTube channel. We have great information there as well. Until next time, I will see you later.
- Dave Jones – LinkedIn
- Pam Jones – LinkedIn
- Long & Foster Investment
- The Mike Ferry Organization
- YouTube – Jen Du Plessis
About Pamela Jones
Pamela is a career REALTOR® who began working with buyers and sellers in 1983. Her commitment to her clients has allowed her to help scores of people find just the right home in communities and neighborhoods all over Northern Virginia. Her watchwords are professionalism, prompt follow-up, excellent communication, and attention to detail, resulting in many referrals from happy clients. These referrals, plus Pam’s dedication and hard work, helped her become a top agent in Loudoun County.
About Dave Jones
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